We also have a tough, tough decision about the dog we got for Ben. It's been two years now that we got Bia, the black lab (not pure bred, but nearly) for Ben. She had a sad history, but I really thought I could turn her into a service dog. She just has too many hang-ups from her past, mostly the starving part. She will trample anyone to get at food, including Ben. She would chase a squirrel and drag Ben, except he is good at dropping the leash. She still won't take a treat gently and always involves her teeth.

Thank you so much for letting us know that she is off death row. I love dogs and her face is absolutely so awesome. She looks like she wants to be loved and give love. I was so upset when I read of the other dog being put down at such a young age and wish more could have been done to save that precious life. Dogs want to please, they just need the guidance to show them how. I have a 15 year old Maltese that is blind due to cataracts and in diapers due to incontinence. The vet says she is still healthy and to not move any furniture and she will get around just fine. She has been there for me when my husband has been hospitalized due to his stage IV lung cancer. We are always there for each other. Again, thank you for giving Bia the opportunity to be the best she can be. She may surprise you and be the best companion ever. Hugs, Barba

1 comment

by hightechgrammy 28 Jan 2014

Thanks for your sweet comments, Barba. However, if she were to turn on anyone, aggressively, I would not hesitate to have her "put down" because I would never want to risk her hurting a child. I don't believe Bia is nearly at that level.

I am glad she is off death row , you can teach old dog new tricks, and I a gree what crazy stitcher said, all the faimily enjoy BIA L Sherene X

Breathe a sigh of relief everyone! Bia is off of death row! We are getting more training and help for her, and us. Thank you so much to everyone who offered help and encouragement.
I would never have her put down unless it was absolutely the very last option, and because we felt she was capable of hurting someone.

3 comments

by sewilso 27 Jan 2014

I am so glad! Hope everything goes well with her continued training, and she'll prove she's a good dog for all concerned.

by airyfairy 27 Jan 2014

THis is truly wonderful news. Thank you so much for giving Bia another chance.

by cfidl 28 Jan 2014

Yeah! So not so old dogs can learn new tricks?

Bia is pronounced like "Be a Good Dog"

Dear Jan,
Sorry to learn about your concerns.
I am a dog breeder and show exhibitor of smaller dogs - Cavalier King Charles Spaniels - I have indulged in this pleasure for over thirty years - and had previously experienced the companionship of my husbands' Dobermans as well as having owned a Belgian Shepherd as a child, with my very first dog being a stray Dalmation cross bred that had followed me home when my mother was still pushing me along in a stroller. I am not a qualified dog trainer, but with my years of experience with and love of dogs, I might be able to help you a little with a few suggestions.
The end of January can be a time when folk on your side of the world start to feel rather weary and discouraged: the excitement and merry making of Christmas and New Year has waned and winter is at its peak, with spring still seeming too far away to really look forward to and you are weighed down with so many chores and responsibilities and I never cease to be amazed by everything that you manage to do.

Please don't be too harsh or hasty with your judgement of Bia.
Before you disown her or give her a death sentence, please take another look into those deep loving eyes of hers and reconsider your training methods.
Please remember the words in the Bible: "judge not, lest in judging ye also be judged".
Training a dog well is an art which demands a lot of perseverance and learning by the trainer as well as the dog.

Dogs are a little like children who depend on you for guidance, discipline, education, care and nutrition, exercise, fun, happiness and love: one of the differences is that unlike most children who grow up and become "independant", your dog remains dependant on you for his or her whole life; in return, they give you great companionship, their unconditional love, and, if you have treated them fairly, their trust.

From what you have said, she might not be the most intelligent dog in the world and you may not be a skilful enough dog-trainer to turn her into a super service dog, but she has certainly improved a lot and the unconditional love that she and Ben share is a special service in itself.
Please also consider that dog-training is an on-going relationship building exercise that needs to be maintained. It is not just a simple chore that's over with as soon as the dog learns the skills you have taught him or her for the first time; it's more like keeping an athlete in peak condition or making sure a highly skilled surgeon stays good at their job, by frequently refreshing and reinforcing the skills already mastered as well as introducing new skills and keeping their lives balanced with time out for fun and relaxation.
She sounds like she is an exhuberant soul that just loves to be alive and Ben probably reponds well to having someone with such a positive attitude in his life.
With regard to how she takes treats from you, please consider that, because dogs are not blessed with hands that have fingers and thumbs with which to grip something both gently and securely, if you hold that desirable treat out to her by gripping it in your hand or fingers, and she gathers from your handling of the treat that it needs to be gripped, the onely sure way she has of taking hold of it without risking dropping that precious gift is gripping it with her teeth which she will try to use quickly in an effort to prevent losing her prize. HOWEVER, IF YOU INSIST ON HER OBEYING AND HOLDING THE SIT COMMAND IN ODER TO RECEIVE HER TREAT AND YOU OFFER THE SMALL TREAT ON THE PALM OF YOUR OPEN LEVEL HAND IN A WAY THAT THE TREAT IS NOT ABOUT TO FALL OFF YOUR HAND SHE IS MORE LIKELY TO TAKE THE TREAT GENTLY AS SHE PRECEIVES FROM YOUR MANERISM THAT THE TREAT DOES NOT NEED TO BE GRIPPED IN ORDER TO HAVE POSSESSION OF IT and that she needs to completely obey your command and sit calmly for a few seconds in order to receive it. Basically, if the treat is offered without too much excitement by the person offering it, it is more likely to be received calmly. My little dogs watch my eyes and my movements and when they see me reach for the treat box or hear a biscuit being snapped in half, they don't need any additional prompting to sit calmly at attention to receive their treats, but, if one of them does get overexcited and attempts to jump up, they are immediately commanded to sit and do not receive their treat, always on an open palm, until they do.
LIKE MOST OLDER PEOPLE, MOST OLDER DOGS CAN LEARN NEW SKILLS, BUT IT TAKES A BIT LONGER TO LEARN AND IS A BIT HARDER TO REMEMBER, SO TRAINERS OF OLDER DOGS, LIKE TEACHERS OF OLDER PEOPLE, NEED TO HAVE A LOT OF PATIENCE, UNDERSTANDING AND PERSEVERENCE, BUT THE SATISFACTION OF HELPING SOME PERSON OR ANIMAL GAIN AND MAINTAIN NEW SKILLS IS ITS OWN REWARD.

With regard to nipping at people, which to her is probably another way for her to get attention, since you have almost managed to stop her putting her paw up on people, this is undesirable behaviour which does need to be PROMPTLY corrected, but fairly.
Because I don't understand the full details of the circumstances in which she is doing this, it is difficult for me to give you comprehensive advice, but, if it is just her testing to see what she can do or trying to get extra attention, if verbal corrections have already failed, I would then try arming myself and whoever she is likely to this to with a very efficient water pistol and the second she does it I would verbally correct her and give her a good brisk squirt of icy cold water in her face to let her know how displeased you are but you will need to be alongside every one she has the opportunity to nip so that you can discipline her yourself or you will have to make sure every one else she gets the opportunity to nip does exactly the same immediate correction. Training needs to be consistent for it to work; that is the rules must always be clear and obedience of those rules must always be commanded.
If that fails, then you will need to look at other methods. Dogs, like children are all individuals with a multitude of reasons for who they are and how they react to different situations. Successful dog trainers, like teachers sometimes need to assess their trainees carefully, try to understand how their trainees perceive things, and re-adjust their teaching methods to find something that works.
Remember the Good Book points out that we, as Christians cannot serve two masters - well, with dogs, it can be very confusing for them if they have to please too many masters (especially if the masters have slightly different rules.)

Please remember that "dog training" means educating the rest of your household as well as your guests about how to treat Bia, what your "house rules" are, etc.

With regard to her being distracted & chasing after squirrels, etc, she is obviously just wanting to play, but still needs to be taught that when she goes out for a walk on a lead, she must be on her best behaviour.
Letting the lead go when she tugs so she can chase after distractions just teaches her that it is ok to misbehave when she goes out for a walk on the lead. The correct use of a check-chain (usually sold as a choke-chain but put on as a check chain & not put on as a choker chain, which is cruel) should enable you to maintain controll of her on a lead without hurting your arm. If you could find the time to take her to some dog obedience classes, even the basic ones run by your local kennel club which are usually group classes for which the charge is quite small, that should help you with that aspect; and if you keep going to training classes, you should be taught how to teach your dog to "drop" on command, even when she is off leash, which may just save your dog from getting hit by a car, if she slips past you and out the gate one day.
At lot of dog training schools and kennel clubs in Australia make provisions for people that have special needs (and I am guessing the same would be the case where you live) so Ben may be able to participate, too and might even enjoy it - you never know unless you give it a try.
If you don't know how to contact your local kennel club, please try to contact your national Kennel Council who should be able to refer you to one close by.
You may have noticed that when a guide dog goes out with its master, and it is wearing its special harness, it is concentrating all its energy and attention on its work.
Similarly, you need to learn how to teach your dog that when her leash goes on, it is the time when she is "on duty" and it's time for her to be obedient. You may also need to learn more about how to teach your dog to be more interested in watching you and your commands than in every distraction while she is "on duty".
None of this is impossible and you have done such a great job so far, it would be very sad for you to give up now.

If you can't get help with training through a kennel club or professional trainer, then I would suggest that you at least try to find and read the following books:

the first one is not a training book, but is an old book that will give you a good appeciation of how people and animals respond to the combination of their instincts and the way that people brand them (both animals and people) and treat them (both animals and people):
1. Jack London's book, "White Fang".

the other two are dog traing books:
2. "Dog Training Made Easy" by Michael Tucker published by Rigby, who was born in England where he trained RAF police dogs for a short while before embarking on a career training dogs for the Guide Dogs for the Blind in England before migrating to Australia where he continued his career training Guide Dogs for thr Royal Guide Dogs for The Blind Association of Australia and later opened his own dog taining school in Melbourne, Australia. Publishers (Adelaide, Sydney, Melbourne, Brisbane, Perth, New York, London, Aukland). This book promotes fairly gentle training methods, mainly for dogs who don't have serious personality problems or histories of abuse.

3. "The Koehler Method of Dog Training" by William Koehler (who trained most of movieland's famous dogs) My copy comes from the Howell Book House & was published in USA by Macmillan Publishing Company. (There still are,I think a number of dog training schools whose teachers have been trained by the author and base their classes on his methods). This book promotes firm training, enforced by plenty of praise. This author has had success with re-training dogs with temperament problems, including dogs on "death row". Some of the methods used in some specific cases of very difficult dogs may seem harsh when taken out of context, but if you read through the whole book carefully from the beginning it will make more sense, especially if you consider that, in some cases, strong, but not prolonged torturous discipline, is kinder than the death penalty.

Even if you can get out for some helpful training tuition, these three books are all well worth reading.

Sorry if this reply seems a bit lengthy, but you have asked a number of questions, each of which does not have a short solution and I sincerely hope it has been of some help.

Good luck, lots of cyber-hugs and God Bless.

3 comments

by airyfairy 26 Jan 2014

Most interesting - thank you.

by marjialexa 26 Jan 2014

Thank you SO much for taking the time to write this answer! I hope the information will be useful to a lot of people. There would be so many fewer dogs surrendered to shelters or killed if folks had a better handle on training, and on what the dog expects from the owner by way of command and follow up. Thank you again for your valuable information, and the time it took to give it. Bless you for caring enough to do it. Hugs, Marji

by hightechgrammy 27 Jan 2014

Thank you, thank you, thank you for your answer. I appreciate every word you wrote, and feel like there is hope for Bia. I have come to the conclusion that we have simply not provided enough of the right training for her. There are so many good things about her, and Ben loves her, so we will seek more help with her training. I WILL read those books and remember that the training is on-going, like you said. I need to remember that she nipped, but she wasn't viscious. I have a friend who will help me on her greeting behaviors, and I like the idea of the water spray to help with that.

She was found on a wintry night in Wyoming, starving, had puppies, but no puppies could be found. She is food obsessed.
What do you think about the always hungry problem? Will she ever get over that? Should I sometime just let her eat till she is totally fulll? I think she would vomit and then eat more. She is just a tiny bit overweight, probably. She is muscular and very energetic. A beautiful dog, shiny black fur.
I do so much appreciate all the time you took to share your expertise on dog behavior. Your time was well spent. I'll give Bia a kiss on top of her head for you!

My blue heeler nips at my daughters ears but this is when she comes home. He is very excited to that she is home and he missed her. She is the only one who will let him lick her face. He will at times do this with me when I have been away for a few days. His body language clearly tells you he is excited with tale wagging like crazy and he makes little crying noises. If I am not home she is the next one he will follow around.

I remember when you drove so far to bring her home. Having been around many different breeds I have been nipped up to pieces because they were giving kisses and I had tiny little bruises on my wrists. Don't know if you have determined if they are love nips glad to meet/greet someone new or downright viscous nips. Have no idea what this would do to Ben's emotional state losing his beloved Bia. Two years of being attached to her could be devastating to his well being. I have no good suggestions but to attempt to have her professionally trained. There maybe an organization that covers the fees on a service dogs training. Sometimes a Minister/Pastor/Priest can help when you have exhausted all your options.

http://www.petpartners.org/servic...

She sounds like she is coming along well with your help, considering her history. Check with a behaviourist about the nipping, but I think it's probably attention-getting behaviour. Please, please if it frightens you, at least give her a chance to find another home where people don't have small children and can handle her, don't end her life just for little nips that someone else may well be able to handle or break her of with extensive training. Animals are never mean in themselves, it's how they have been treated by humans that makes them wary and gives them bad habits. If you aren't in a position to handle the costant correction and great effort it takes with some of these little guys, please give someone else a chance to try. They don't deserve to die because some idiot human abused them. I'd sooner eliminate the supposed human than the poor mistreated animal. Unacceptable behavior is fixable by professionals, not a capital offence. With a special needs child, a better choice would be a reputable (emphasis on REPUTABLE, not backyard breeder) that knows the temprament of her dogs, and has hand-raised them from pups. And one that can train you how to train the dog as well. A Sheltie would be a good, gentle choice. Give Bia a chance with someone who can handle her, please don't kill her for a bit of questionable behaviour. And everyone but everyone should understand that a rescued or abused animal is going to need lots of special care, extra time and training, and lots of leeway. Not everyone is in a position to do that, despite the best of intentions. Please re-home her if you have any doubts, but let her live her life. Hugs, Marji

4 comments

by airyfairy 25 Jan 2014

Marji - thank you for this - you have said everything I wanted to say but I was so upset when I first read Jan's post, I was lost for any words.

by hightechgrammy 26 Jan 2014

We are her third family already. The first one was the bad one. She lived with the second family for two years and us for two so far. How can I send her on to another family who might not understand how far she has come? I am afraid she might be abused again, because she can be so much trouble.

by marjialexa 26 Jan 2014

Jan, I don't know where you are, but there are agencies who specialize in breed rescue. We have a local one here that specializes in greyhounds. The foster parents KNOW the dog has behaviour problems, and they are trained to correctly train and socialize the dog so it can be adopted into a forever home. Some of the animal rescue agencies are equipped to handle situations like this as well. No one should ever surrender an animal to any agency without giving a full history, including behaviour problems. No reputable agency will adopt out an animal without disclosing those issues. Another family or individual will know Bia's behaviour because you will tell all about it, and tell how far she's come. Dear Jan, I know what a tender heart you have, and I hope you don't hear this as in any way being cruel or putting you down. Perhaps a dog that already came with a set of problems wasn't the best choice for Ben, but that's water under the bridge. You have her now. And I hope I'm not hearing that you've already decided to kill her and want support to do it. Please read what the lady wrote about dog training in the most recent post. Having had cats all my life, the hardest thing I had to learn with Jamie is that a dog actually wants a COMMAND, not a "request". I'm not a "command" person, I train cats. Jamie was so simple to train, Bud had a far harder time "training" me. Perhaps Bia's background and your innate goodness and gentleness is preventing you from giving her straightforward commands that she can understand, and insisting that they be obeyed without question. You don't have to me "mean" to do this, but you must be firm and inflexible. They can't get away with it "just this one time", not ever. You have to be the Alpha dog. I wonder if your fear of her nipping possibly turning into biting isn't part of the problem. Bia knows your fear, make no mistake. And that makes HER the Alpha dog, not you. And Alphas do what they want, whenever they want, without consequences. You need to take back your Alpha status and not be afraid. And everyone in the household needs to be on the same page, send EXACTLY the same message, or she'll get confused. She can't be corrected for a behaviour by one person and let to get away with it by another. The behaviour is either "right" and praised, or "wrong" and corrected. Any and every dog has to have these rules, no matter where they come from. They actually work for children as well, although modern parents seem to have forgotten this. For Bia's sake and yours, control your fear, be an Alpha, and perhaps sign up for training courses at PetSmart or somewhere where you can get professional advice and help on being an Alpha dog, a commander of respect and obedience, and Bia'll go along with that program. Or, get in contact with a lab rescue organization that can re-train her, and don't get another dog until you decide you're the Alpha in your house, or you'll have the same problems. Best of luck, Jan, really I'm rooting for you. But please don't kill her because you can't re-train her yourself.

by hightechgrammy 27 Jan 2014

Boy did you hit the nail on the head! I am NOT a natural Alpha. I am used to cats and with them you just kind of INVITE them to do something!
Also, I have another whole dimension to my life. I am the full-time caregiver to a very needy adult with disabilities. I have a wonderful husband who helps, but truly, most of the care and management rests on the mom. This can be exhausting. I am 63 years old and have my own physical and medical challenges that are draining. I have a hard time getting enough restful sleep, and rarely have a break. I don't have much time to regenerate. Most of the time I am exhausted. And, Bia is another drain on me. She takes more energy - energy that I just don't have. Our cats fill me up, our parrots fill me up, but at this point, she takes energy away from me.
I have decided I am going to get more help with her training. We are NOT going to her put down, because now I feel there is hope for her. There is more Good about her than wrong. Then when she is better trained, she will add to the family, instead of drain. She is an asset to Ben. We just cannot have her hurt anyone! I could never forgive myself.

What a beautiful dog. Her nipping could be considered by some to be biting. I'd talk to a trainer in your area who know dogs and could help you stop this. With our dogs we have always trained them to sit and stay until the food is put down, then they can eat. You might want to try doing that with her food. Good luck in your decision.

1 comment

by hightechgrammy 27 Jan 2014

She does a really good job with waiting for her food. But offering the treat is a whole other thing - crazy dog!

She is a beautiful dog. Labs need a lot of exercise. Maybe she just needs a brisk exercise schedule to tire her out a little more. Please do not give up on her, that face is awesome. Hopefully a vet or trainer can help. Best of luck. Hugs, Barba

1 comment

by hightechgrammy 27 Jan 2014

I know she needs more exercise - got to do that!

Poor baby...she sounds like she doesn't know quite how to express herself gently. Like a bad kid the nipping may the only way she was ever given any attention. Even if it was abusive attention :( May be contact the 4H they may know of someone who helps retrain abused animals. The hunger thing...do you blame her? I think that will get better with time once she knows her tummy will always be full. I've taken in a lot of staving abandoned kitties and they will spend about a year gorging themselves thinking it's their last meal, but it does get better with time because they come to know with me they are always loved, warm and have a full tummy. Good luck.
Muffy :)

1 comment

by hightechgrammy 27 Jan 2014

She is a huge, gangly teenage with her body! I will contact the local 4-H person, I think she is still doing that!

I honestly by what you have said don't see her as mean behavior. I have lab just like her. Which I have to speak firm to tone down. She is smart and when she is excited does a nip like your speaking of and I let her know it hurt. Like her momma would as it reminds me as I have seen a pup nip their momma for attention. Labs are attention hogs, very loveable and for most part very smart. I got mine at dog kennel and she was probably on the get rid of list as she was 6 mos old. It took one day for me to teach her outside to potty.She does many things now and I have told my husband watch how you spell she knows that word and I think even how to spell some of them. So I do hope you will talk with Vet find a way to tone down her behavior but from this picture she is a very loveable lab aims to please just needs a little behavior fix. She certainly has touched my heart. Give her a hug from me.

2 comments

by cfidl 25 Jan 2014

It is true, some dogs learn to spell. we spell out walk and play and the dog still knows we are talking about him! It really is funny and amazing

by hightechgrammy 27 Jan 2014

Ben can spell too. He says, I don't want a B-A-T-H now.

It may be her way of saying hi to people, you should watch her and discourage that kind of behavior. Definitely talk to the vet or any dog trainer to see if she can be broken of that. She does seem like she's came along way and perfect otherwise. I hate to put an animal down.
You don't have small kids do you that could be bitten? Labs definitely don't like people messing with them when they eat.

1 comment

by hightechgrammy 26 Jan 2014

We don't have any grandkids here, but my friends do have grandkids and I love for them to be able to bring them over. She is so jealous of the attention they get, she doesn't know what to think of those little people.

Oh, Jan, I feel your pain.......I would definitely talk with the vet or if you can see if an animal behaviorist is available in your area for a reasonable fee........She is certainly a beauty......big hug my friend......

1 comment

by hightechgrammy 26 Jan 2014

This is so hard. We always keep our animals all their lives, through thick and thin, from babies through old age, no matter what. I just don't want anyone to get hurt. I am so afraid she will bite someone.....

Hi Jan, we have a wonderful vet over here called Dr Harry Cooper (he was actually born in Newcastle) and he is a wealth of knowledge on dogs.

What about Cesar Millan, I believe he is a well known dog trainer? I'm sure that Bia's nipping is just a habit. I think being a Labrador (one of the gentler breeds) he would be easily trained to stop the nipping. It may be just his way of greeting.

Good luck with it all and I hope a good outcome will eventuate. Love Chris

I am hoping she can be re-housed or however they say it. My SIL loves this breed and has rescued quite a few. Jan, I will call her, she may not be able to since the last one was also an abused female. text my cell.

Is she aggressive when she nips? Does her body language say aggression? If so she may very well bite. It sounds as if she has not discovered her role in the family. She may also be "protecting" Ben. A trip to the vet is the best plan.

I agree with Bev, talk to your vet to be sure.

oooooo the pain------I made an entry yesterday(((((
It is sooo sad to try and UNDO someone else's abuse--
Our purebred just went to be with Jesus yesterday----when she turned on Hubby, it was time. I miss watching her joyful outside play, but when she turned on her ALPHA PERSON---that was his last straw for her---
She was just a year old--but the scars were there--
It is a hard decision, but the chance of biting a child just left NO question in what had to be done.
I will pray that you make the right decision and can find peace with that decision----IT IS NOT EASY!!!!
God bless and guide you...

have a talk with your vet,they would be your best source of information I would think.

What a beautiful dog. I would say that the nipping is attention seeking. I really do not know what else to tell you Jan. Hugs to you and Ben. Sarah.

She is also really good with the cats and parrots.