I have removed this post with my personal apology for any legal issues which may have been construed as impinging upon this website, its agents or owners. Should the author of the poem whose name was credited in the introduction have any concerns regarding the well-meaning inclusion of his work here, I would be happy for the site owner to pass on my personal contact details to the author and/or his agent. It is not my intention to impose any legal liability upon the owner of this website or her agents.

As clearly pointed out by rescurer, I am not a copyright attorney nor have I ever claimed to be. I am, however, a copyright holder in both the written word and art productions. In addition, I have worked in the publishing business and have been well trained in copyright regulations.

True, there are exclusions to copyright law. One, as specifically mentioned in this thread, is the doctrine of fair use (see link below). This doctrine allows exemption for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, scholarship, and research. It does not allow an exemption for the purpose of anecdotal fun. In addition, four criteria are used to determine whether "fair use" is appropriate: 1) whether the material is of commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes; 2) the nature of the copyright protected material; 3) the amount of the copyright protected material used; and 4) the effect of the use upon the potential market or value of the copyrighted material.

The last sentence of the fourth paragraph of the text from the U.S. Copyright Office on fair use should be of particular interest: "Acknowledging the source of the copyrighted material does not substitute for obtaining permission."

3 comments

by rescuer edited 06 Apr 2014

The post was intended for "comment" as allowed. This forum IS a place for comments.
As far as the criteria...
1) Dennis made no money from posting this and the author lost none.
2) The material posted is easily accessible in many formats -- including on the internet.
3) He only used one Poem -- not an entire book.
4) The market for his works has increased as Cuties are interested in reading more of his works.

Please let this go. I appreciate your desire to have everyone follow the laws. Just do not create rules where there are none

by AuntAnnie 06 Apr 2014

I have not created any new rules. Please understand that a poem, by itself, is most definitely copyright protected; it does not have to be contained in a book of a collection of poetry!!! Also, many things available on the internet are not legal. It is not required that the poster be making a profit for the work to be considered pirated when duplicated. If following your interpretation, no one would ever be considered of copyright infringement for posting a free design here from another site if including the owner's name and some comment (supposedly to usurp copyright regs.). After all, the originator (copyright owner) made the design available to anyone--for free, the design is not part of a collection (book), nor is the reposter requesting payment (not making a profit) from others, I think the fallacious comparison is clear.

P.S. Here is the copyright information on Mr. Ahlberg's poem "Scissors."
Copyright from Please Mrs Butler (Penguin, 1983), copyright © Allen Ahlberg 1983,

by rescuer 06 Apr 2014

I do understand copyright. I have studied it for quite some time. I will not argue with you any longer as you are only here to argue. Any further rude posts by you will simply be removed.
You are NOT an expert in this field. You really need to Study the Fair Use Act and related lawsuits.

I was thinking of embroidering it & framing it for my sewing room. If I do that will the copy write police come and arrest me?....LOL
Muffy :)

1 comment

by AuntAnnie 06 Apr 2014

It is permissible to reproduce the poem for your own personal use. As with any design, you are not allowed to give it away, sell it, or claim it in any way as your own.

May I thank you all for your kind remarks. I do not wish to prolong the debate surrounding this issue but would just say that I am sure that Annie was well-meaning in stating her understanding of the situation. There is certainly no ill-feeling on my part and I hope not from her.
May I ask that we draw a line under this as of now. At the very least it will allow those of you who have misplaced your scissors, the time to go look for them.........lol

1 comment

by basketkase 06 Apr 2014

Nicely said, Dennis!

Good morning everyone. I checked out Ahlberg and the name of the poem is "Scissors". Mrs. Butler is about a child dealing with another child. I did enjoy reading these poems. Thank you Dennis, I had not seen them. I was confused because I went to the Mrs. Butler poem and there is no mention of scissors, It was late, well past bed time. So now hours later I read Alma post and went right to the correct poem. Now I see how wonderfully appropriate for our forum this is. It is unfortunate I missed the rest of the discussion, as I am sure it would have nurtured my spirit. Thank you for pointing the way.

I'm another who read ad enjoyed the poem. I suspect Allan Ahlberg would have approved of the posting in such an appropriate place, especially as some of us looked him up on the Internet. Keep up the good work Dennis keeping us all amused and on our toe

1 comment

by shirley124 06 Apr 2014

Well said.

Dennis, always the gentleman, I think you did exactly the right thing in your post yesterday. You gave a quote and gave full credit to the author. If he saw it, he would probably have been very happy with the publicity. I'm sure there would only have been a problem if you had misquoted the poem and claimed it as your own!

1 comment

by shirley124 06 Apr 2014

Here! Here!

You know? I could really do with a bit of fun and a laugh right now, or a happy memory, something like that, just about anything.
Ah, I've now re-read the messages properly instead of skimming through and I now have the poet and the topic so I guess I'll go in search of the now-removed touch of amusement........ hmmmmmmmmmmmm......aha!!!!

http://shelfelf.wordpress.com/200...

and

http://www.poetryarchive.org/poet...

There you go and I guess this is what the fuss is all about..... But..... I just wonder if Allan Ahlberg was sitting at the back of my classroom when my classroom scissors were counted at the end of each lesson in PNG.... I have made the same stern comments many times, standing in front of a sea of innocent brown eyes and black curly hair and I still have what's left of the big set of scissors - classes of 40 were the norm then and right now I wish I'd given them all away before I left that grand country. Hunger got the better of us all every time at that boarding school and the students knew it so they just bided their time and the scissors count dwindled, gradually but surely, with every week that passed......................................

Well, Dennis, here's one Aussie English teacher who has spent the last half hour on one of those incredibly enjoyable journeys back in time because I Googled, 'Allan Ahlberg Scissors'.
The next time I am near a book shop I'll certainly be taking steps towards acquiring a book of this author's works.
Please, if you have the time and knowledge, don't give up offering your morsels of fun and laughter. A lot of people here just love them.
AlmaG.

2 comments

by mops 06 Apr 2014

Thanks Alma, now I could read it as well. Funny!

by asterixsew 06 Apr 2014

Alma all of Allan Ahlbergs books are brilliant and I love them. Many of the books he has written are illustrated by his late wife Janet. The poem came from 'Please Mrs Butler' published by Penguin books. ISBN 0-14-031494-6
Happy reading

Dennis, I'm afraid I missed your lovely poem but happy to see so many enjoyed it! We also learned back in elementary school about adding the authors' name to poetryand not one person complained about copyright infringement back then---it is the norm!! Is there, perhaps, a link to this poem somewhere on the net that we who missed it might get a chance to read it? You mentioned the author but maybe I missed the title of the poem to look it up. Feel free (anyone) to pm me this info if you'd rather not post it. Sometimes little things get blown way out of proportion and in so doing it steps on our toes. I wonder how long before it becomes illegal to breathe the air outdoors as someone probably owns the rights to it! Thank you!
Meri

Dennis, I missed your post, but it sounds like you did the right thing by including the author's name.
When ever anyone quotes something some one has written,be it a contemporary writer or an old dude like Shakespeare :), the author's name must always be noted. This is not plagiarism, as AuntAnnie seems to imply.
This is a basic rule we learned at school and were encouraged to include quotes from novels, poetry and drama, including the author's name, in our English exams.
Ricky, another Aussie from South Australia.

Well, gee whiz! I wish I caught the posting in time to read it Dennis. It's been a sad day and a good smile would have been in order. Maybe you will re post or maybe a link? :)

Dennis, I am so sorry you believed you needed to remove or edit your post. As Jerrilyn points out -- The Fair Use Act allows for exact copy for things included in the Act. This should remind **ALL** Cuties not to rely on the word of someone else (or some random website that offers their unqualified opinion) but instead to look up the law and if it is too confusing -- ask a qualified attorney to help you understand your rights and the rights of other's.
Please note -- by her own admission -- AuntAnnie is not an Attorney.
Thank you Dennis for your posts -- all of them!

Thanks for the smile Dennis. I had about 7 different pairs on the table yesterday trying to see which ones did the job I was working on the best. None were perfect, so looks like I am off to the shops again in search of yet another pair . lol Shirley

Lovely Dennis, think I have a copy of the book this is from 'Please Mrs Butler' The Ahlbergs produced some fantastic childrens books which my grandchildren are now enjoying and their parents remembering them too as they had them read to them in childhood. Must check if Burglar Bill took any scissors. Just checked and it is from the book 'Please Mrs Butler' which is still on the bookshelf with me and not removed by a daughter for their home

At the risk of being condemned, I would like to remind everyone that the written word is copyright protected just as are the designs we collect or purchase. Copying the poem and placing it here, verbatim, is in violation of copyright laws--same as if posting a copyright protected design. The appropriate way to share copyright protected text is to provide the link to the legal webpage. (I'm surprised our beloved, over-worked moderator, jrob, missed this opportunity to teach!)

4 comments

by mariahail 05 Apr 2014

she has the author of the poem, is that still illegal?

by AuntAnnie 05 Apr 2014

Permission must be granted by the copyright holder or author to reproduce the test. Same as duplicating or digitizing a logo or other piece of art.

by jrob 05 Apr 2014

Dennis, I apologize on behalf Annie as she has come up to, and crossed the line. You were in no way out of order nor were you incorrect in your posting.
Annie,
As I am surprised that your non-ending copyright rants did not find in the U.S. Copyright Fair Use Act that this was perfectly acceptable as a teaching medium. I personally am exhausted by your comments. If you want to be a moderator, corrector, lawyer, please apply via the proper channels.

Section 107 contains a list of the various purposes for which the reproduction of a particular work may be considered fair, such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, scholarship, and research. Section 107 also sets out four factors to be considered in determining whether or not a particular use is fair.

The purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes
The nature of the copyrighted work
The amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole
The effect of the use upon the potential market for, or value of, the copyrighted work.

by muffy edited 06 Apr 2014

Good one jrob...this never ending "I know everything there is to know about copy write" thing gets real old. That why they have lawyers who "specialize" in copy writes as it is incredibly complicated.
Muffy :)

Very appropriate for anyone who sews. I was lucky enough to be an only girl, sew I have my mothers goodies as well as my beloved MIL. Thank you for the lovely poem, Mr. D.
Are you ever going to share how many are in your stash? I know, I know if you do divulge this info you'd have to dispose of the the cuties who read about it...never mind LOL.

Yes,this poem is for me..When my mother passed away,one of my sister's wanted her machine(which I sewed on when I was younger-and wanted..) So,guess what I asked for---her scissors...Got them..Diane M.

Love it - Love it!!!
I was sick in bed, when the scissor count happened here. And, without giving too much thought, I know I have at least 12 pairs of sewing scissors. And, I must admit, my dear husband purchased most of them for me - what a guy!! Laura*

Love this Dennis. Thank you for posting.

Dennis! Did you write this poem?? *flowers to all*

2 comments

by dennis999 05 Apr 2014

No, it was written by an Allan Ahlberg who, I believe, writes poetry for children (couldn't be more apt, what with you lot losing things). I understand that it was specifically written with the teachers of young children in mind.

by shozo1271 05 Apr 2014

The poem was way too funny, sounded like something you would have come up with about our scissor collections. Thanks for the laugh, but so sorry you took the poem down...

LOL>>>>>>>that's hilarious. It's the newest global problem that needs solving.

people must express their feeling on losing scissors, if someone wrote a poem about them. too funny!

Exactly! What a hoot!

Thanks for the laugh. This poem is fitting me to a tee since I have still not found the pair that got away.

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!! dennis u r a HOOT!

ROTFLMAO - perfect!

Love it thank you